Kitchen Project #189: All About Breadcrumbs
So you can use every last crumb. An All That Crumbs Allow special!
Hello,
Welcome to today’s edition of Kitchen Projects. Thank you so much for being here.
Today, we will be exploring the most humble of ingredients: Breadcrumbs. This is all thanks to the brilliance of Camilla Wynne & Michelle Marek and their recently released co-authored book. ‘All That Crumbs Allow’. To tell us all about it, I’m genuinely honoured to welcome Tim Mazurek, Chicago-based writer & critic to Kitchen Projects for a joyful ‘in conversation’ special with the two authors.
You’ll then get an excerpt from the book as well as the recipe for Sweet Cheese Dumplings, Michelle’s ode to her childhood visits to her Grandmother in Czechia. Meanwhile on KP+, I’m very excited to share the recipe that I contributed to the book! Half way between a strudel and a baklava, it is a rich, walnut and apple accordion filo crisp with a spiced brown sugar syrup and I can’t wait for you to make it. Click here for the recipe.
What’s KP+? Well, it’s the level-up version of this newsletter. By joining KP+, you will support the writing and research that goes into the newsletter (including the commissioning - and fair payment - of all the writers), join a growing community, access extra content (inc. the entire archive) and more. Subscribing is easy and costs only £6 per month or £50 per year. Why not give it a go? Come and join the gang!
Love,
Nicola
ps. Camilla and Michelle are taking their book on the road, including to London this coming week. I’ll have the joy of interviewing them at Quince Bakery on Friday 14th at the launch party - get your ticket here! (£25 inc treats & the talk) and they also have a menu on at Saltine on Thursday 13th!
In Conversation: All That Crumbs Allow
by Tim Mazurek
When Nicola asked me to talk to Camilla Wynne and Michelle Marek about their new cookbook, All That Crumbs Allow, I immediately said yes. Camilla, no stranger to readers of this newsletter, is a good friend of mine and I have admired Michelle from afar for years. But excitement over the assignment quickly gave way to anxiety over how to adequately convince you, dear Kitchen Project comrades, of just how cool Camilla and Michelle are because that feels like the most imperative thing for you to know. I thought about describing Camilla stirring a vat of black currant jam in a dainty dress that the rest of us would save for a party, or Michelle nonchalantly making incredible ceramics in her free time. But these are rather superficial manifestations of their coolness and not exactly what I am talking about. What makes them both cool is that they are so thoroughly themselves. They have some sort of internal compass that steers them on their own path and makes them both such singular and exciting voices in food.
This is evident in All That Crumbs Allow, Camilla’s fourth book and Michelle’s first (though she has worked on many books). Together they tackle the unlikely but rich topic of breadcrumbs as only they can. They cover everything from how to make them to how to use them in recipes in familiar (schnitzel) and innovative ways (breadcrumb frangipane!), and they do it while demonstrating their expertise and good humor. It is a perfect collaboration.
OVER ON KP+:
I (Nicola) am just sticking my head in to let you know that I am VERY thrilled to have contributed a recipe to All That Crumbs Allow: A sticky, gorgeous walnut & apple accordian crisp, the love child of strudel & baklava. I am, once again, VERY thrilled that you can get that recipe on KP+ today.
Recently Camilla, Michelle, and I met up online, cocktails in hand, to discuss their new book.
Tim Mazurek: I want to start off by asking: How did this come about? You talk a little bit about it in the introduction, which, by the way—I love this book. I’m sorry, I should have started with that…
Camilla Wynne: Aww!
TM It’s so good, you guys! I was really giddy reading it. It’s such a good tone, such good writing. I think the back and forth between the two of you is really good. I love the argument at the beginning for using crumbs and how you situate it within the current moment and your lives. Also I want to make every recipe. I am just really excited about this.
Michelle Marek: Oh, amazing!
TM So tell me a little bit about how this idea started and how it grew.
MM Well, it was in tandem, the way I remember it. I was working on a pitch and I think I texted Camilla, and I’m like, hey, I have an idea for a story about breadcrumbs, and she’s like, that’s so weird, I’m also working on a pitch for a story about breadcrumbs. We realized, why don’t we do it together? Camilla created a shared Google Doc, and it went from there, and we kept adding and adding. At first it was supposed to be a zine-type publication, we didn’t even know what it was. We were both deeply unemployed at the time. It’s winter! You start panicking!
CW Yeah, I don’t think I was even writing a pitch, but for years, it had been down on my notes as something I wanted to pitch, but I was always like—who would take this? I had this idea that it was a little bit unpublishable. So I thought, we’ll do it ourselves. I wouldn’t do it by myself, but if I do it with Michelle then all of a sudden it becomes not only fun, but you also have someone to hold yourself accountable to.
MM It was just perfect timing, and it was such a fun collaboration. I don’t remember having so much fun collaborating on writing with someone in my life.
CW Oh thank you so much! I love your writing so much, that made it so much fun for me. Michelle’s also one of my favorite cooks, so to get to taste her recipes and stuff, I was like: this rules!
TM In terms of the recipe development, given the way the book evolved from that shared document, I’m curious about how many of the recipes existed and how many came about through research and the back and forth between you two.
MM I think it, for me, was 50/50. Some I knew had to be there, like strudel, the bread dumplings—there were things that were, like, must, must, must. But then there were things that came up as I talked to people. For instance, our friend Nick, I mentioned I was working on breadcrumbs, and he’s like, well, I’ve been making breadcrumb flour, and then making that into pasta, and I was like, I’m going to be doing that. And some things just came out of absolutely nowhere, like that focaccia that I invented. You coat the hot focaccia in bagna cauda and then top it with breadcrumbs. That does not exist anywhere. And it was freaking delicious, so I’m like, well, that’s going in.
CW I think it’s the exact same for me. When we had the idea, I had unpublished recipes, like my toasted marmalade shortbread and my dad’s fish and chips recipe, that I knew I wanted to include. And then when we started getting into it, I started looking in things like old Czech and Hungarian cookbooks and stuff like that. That’s where I got the idea for the bread-stuffed chicken. The Witch’s Froth, I read about that in a Hungarian book, and I was like, that’s wild, let me see if I can make that.
MM And then it was fun to ask other people for recipes to share. The last section of the book is titled “Other People’s Crumbs”. It was very fun to reach out to Jeremy Lee and Canal House, and, you know, all these amazing cooks. And so that was kind of a fun bonus for us.
TM How did you get from this shared document to Good Egg publishing the book?
MM So, we looked into self-publishing. I had a couple meetings here in Montreal with small presses. I got the specs for the cost for the print run, and then it was like, oh god, we’ve got to do the page layout, and I don’t know how to do that, I guess we need a designer—and it started to snowball…
CW I think the ultimate thing that made us be like, is this a good idea?, is when I realized, wait, we live in different cities! Who’s keeping boxes and doing all the bad work, like stuffing envelopes and stuff? Or contacting bookstores? It’s gonna ruin our friendship.
MM Good Egg already has some of that sorted out. It’s a very small imprint, but I like that about it. She [owner Mika Bereket] was game to do it. We didn’t think anyone would want this.
CW Yeah, I was a guest at a cookbook class that was hosted at Good Egg in February, maybe, and I was talking about it, and after class Mika was like, hey! what you doing? And I said oh, no, no, we’re self-publishing, it’s a zine. And later Michelle and I were like, actually, maybe we will just hand it over to you. Maybe we need help.
TM One thing that’s been a topic of discussion in my house has been the title. Will you tell me about the title?
MM This wasn’t the original title, we had another title which we both really loved. But every time I mentioned it to someone, they were like, hard no.
CW I had the opposite experience. Everyone loved it. Ha.
MM We can tell you the original title, Crumbs Are Also Bread. Which is a Danish proverb, which we then put in the book. But people thought it’s so closed, it’s too austere. You need to have something more welcoming and like an invitation. An open-ended question that you’re gonna answer with the book. My favorite film is All That Heaven Allows. And so I thought of a little play on that. Because it’s also a bit fanciful and personal. It’s very personal, this book.
TM That’s great, okay. I didn’t catch the reference. And my husband was obsessed with it— insisting it’s a play on something. He’s been googling it and trying to figure it out so this information will be a relief for him.
As I mentioned I really like the way you talk about situating crumbs and this kind of resourceful cooking—you give it a political and economic placement, right? We’re living in a time where wealth inequalities are growing, all these things are happening politically, and there is a way in which the food world continues to publish the same articles on how to throw a fancy dinner party or whatever…
CW We were putting caviar bumps on, like, everything a year ago.
TM Yes, exactly. And there’s a way in which that feels like it’s getting more extreme, the disconnect between people’s lives. So, I’m curious if that was a part of the attraction to the project, or did that come as you started working on the project?
CW Because Michelle and I really forged our friendship in professional kitchens, there is such an ethos there of using everything, right? But that’s so hard to actually translate into a cookbook. I don’t even understand how you would write a zero-waste cookbook. Our backgrounds are both Eastern European and we don’t come from money, and saving things and making the most out of them’s always been a thing for us. So I would say it was baked into the project from day one. That’s why it’s such an interesting subject, I think. Because you’re making something good with what is garbage to a lot of people.
MM And some of our favorite writers and cookbooks deal with these issues, you know, like MFK Fisher or Patience Gray. They’re writing about peasant cuisine. The thing that’s great about most peasant cuisines is that they really take the food to another level—to someplace rich people could only dream of. And in fact, people fetishize these cuisines. It’s this weird relationship between sincere food from lack of resources, and then it gets fetishized as something else, you know, this happens with Southern (US) food, Italian—some of the most expensive restaurants are rustic Italian. Guys, they were poor in Sardinia, like, that’s why they put breadcrumbs on the pasta, because they didn’t have cheese.
CW I mean, commercially, it’s very hard, especially since we’re kind of taking an anti-store-bought breadcrumb stance. Like commercially, this book is a little bit difficult. We can’t do a brand collab…
MM It’s true.
CW We need an old-timey bread rasp company.
TM Ha. Yeah, I mean, that’s something interesting about the book, too, is that this is not the way many people in the US or Canada have cooked. We don’t have breadcrumbs, right? We throw out stale bread. So there’s a way in which the first step of all of your recipes is to go get a loaf of bread and let it sit out for 3 days. Which I think is cool and bold. It requires a new way of life.
MM But doesn’t everyone have, like, a rusk of bread? I’ve got, like, 3 different breads right now on my counter that I didn’t finish.
TM I think most people throw out stale bread.
CW Well this book is meant to change you at a molecular level, really.
TM Why do anything if that’s not gonna be what happens, right?
MM Yes!
TM Now is the time where I want to admit that breadcrumbs have always stressed me out.
CW + MM WHY?!
TM I don’t ever feel like I get them correct. And what I learned from your book that I need to go lower tech with how I make my breadcrumbs. In the past I’ve used a food processor and end up with such varied sizes of breadcrumbs that I can’t make any sense of it. From marbles to a fine powder. But never the right amount of the size I need.
MM That’s normal for a food processor. The food processor doesn’t do that well, and this is why artisanal breadcrumbs are kind of hard to find. I was just talking to Marc Cohen at Lawrence, a restaurant here in Montreal, who’s hosting a dinner with us, and he’s like, do you know how many food processors I have killed by making breadcrumbs? And I’m like, I know exactly because it’s really hard on the machine. Which is why, in the book, we talk about these crazy lo-fi methods like a rolling pin or a huge mortar and pestle. Because that is really the best way, even though it’s kind of the craziest.
TM Well, I just made a batch with a knife! Following your instructions. And I got beautiful breadcrumbs! I think this has been a shadow over my cooking for a while now, so I do think this was a breakthrough for me. So, personally, thank you.
MM Amazing! That’s great!
TM The book doesn’t have any photographs, which harkens back to old-school cookbooks. Was that a necessity? Was it intentional from the beginning? And either way, what do you think that contributes to a cookbook in 2025? [Editor’s Note: You can browse the ATCA gallery on Camilla’s website here if you are keen for some visual temptation!]
CW We never thought there were gonna be any photos, because we never thought we were gonna have any money for photos, and that continues to be true. We would, in our fantasy, love for someone to buy this book and give us money to do photos. But we both have a real love for old text-based cookbooks that just have illustrations. No one’s got any imagination anymore.
MM In my top ten favorite cookbooks of all time, none of them have photos. Marcella Hazan, Patience Gray, Jane Grigson, MFK Fisher, Elizabeth David—I love those books. Sometimes you do have to take a leap of faith though. Sometimes they try to explain something and you’re like: I don’t think I understand. Ha. But sometimes photos don’t help you either.
CW Also, sometimes photos confuse you, actually. Just as an aside, we’re making dinner tonight, and our kid wouldn’t let me cook dinner, and my partner had to take over. And they were like, should I really cut these mushrooms a half inch thick? It doesn’t look like that in the photo. Trust what was written down! Because food stylists lie! Ha.
TM It’s true. But all of that said, do you really think you would want a version of the book with photographs?
MM Maybe if we did an expanded version. What I like about this particular edition is it’s lo-fi. It’s kind of DIY, it’s a bit, like, 1930s era, you know? I think photographs would fundamentally change the message of the book. Like, how can you talk about something accessible, something proletariat and then spend $30,000 on photographs—you know, beautying it up with a lot of fancy silverware and stuff?
CW Yeah, I would say that if this book ever did get photos, which feels more and more wrong to me the more we talk about it, they would have to be a very specific style. Like a concrete block plinth that every dish is just placed on its own.
TM Totally, yeah, because you definitely don’t want to do peasant fantasy stuff.
MM Oh god, no! Us in, like, traditional Czech costume. Could you imagine, though?
CW Someone would.
TM Actually, most publishers would probably push for that, to be honest.
CW But also I spent today making an online gallery of photos of all the dishes in the book.
And also people can share their photos and learn from each other. Sometimes without a photo, it’s hard to visualize it.
TM I love the idea that the photos could come later. I mean that’s really interesting, right? The photos will exist but you’ll have saved 30 grand.
CW Totally.
TM Speaking of which, you two are about to go on a book tour. You’re taking the book to London.
MM We’re spending all the money we got paid. Ha.
CW We can’t wait.
TM Tell me about the tour. How did that come about?
CW Well, Good Egg, our publisher, doesn’t work like a traditional publisher does, where they’re sending out the influencer packages and have teams of people working on marketing. So we want to go out into the world in order to sell the book, and tell people about it.
MM There’s already a lot of London in the book. We’ve got recipes from people like Nicola Lamb, Anna Higham, and Jeremy Lee. We’re excited about that city, and what people are making and we wanted to go and also get to hang out with each other.
A story that is pertinent here is when we styled Camilla’s last cookbook, Nature’s Candy, we flew to Paris to do a week of photos. Which was insane. Everyone was like: How did you do it? Well, we just spent all the money we made on it because that was a priority. Because we’re like—why not have fun? And make it something memorable for us? I do a lot of food styling in studios, and that’s never memorable.
TM I love this approach.
MM I can’t wait to go see what the produce is like in London, you know, to visit all these bakeries, and to get re-inspired. And people know breadcrumbs are important there, I think. The kids might not know, but it’s in their DNA.
TM Totally, it’s so true. I’m excited for you guys. I wish I could be there. Thanks for taking the time to talk tonight—I had so much fun. And congrats again on the book!
All That Crumbs Allow is published by Toronto’s beloved Good Egg, a cookbook shop that has published a handful of beautiful cookbooks on unusual topics. Camilla and Michelle are headed to London for some very special events celebrating the release of the book. You can try items from the menu at Saltine on Thursday, November 13th (either book in for the full supper club or pick items a la carte from the menu!) and then at the launch party at Quince bakery (along with a Q&A with Nicola) on Friday the 14th. Get a copy here.
How To Make Breadcrumbs
Excerpted from All That Crumbs Allow by Michelle Marek & Camilla Wynne. Published by Good Egg.
The better the bread, the tastier the crumb! Our platonic ideal is a breadcrumb made from a loaf of sourdough bread, lovingly shaped and baked by you, a friend, or your local bakery. But we are also realistic and know that sometimes you grab a baguette at the grocery store and don’t manage to finish it within its lifespan (less than 24 hours).
Any sort of crusty loaf will do here, baguettes adding more crust to crumb ratio, which can be nice. You never want to use soft sandwich bread or enriched bread like brioche, unless it is for a specific recipe, such as Brioche Crunch. The addition of eggs and dairy in these breads make the crumbs more prone to scorching. Add-ins like seeds, nuts, fruits and spices are also to be avoided for general crumb-making, unless you like the surprise of cumin in your cake. Not only will bits of dried fruit gum up the works of the food processor, but nuts and seeds can go rancid more quickly and impact the shelf life of your crumbs. Save those breads for larger croutons to go into salads, clearly labelled.
Some of the recipes in this book will specify the bread to use, like in Czech Bread Dumplings, which call for stale white buns such as Portuguese or kaiser rolls, but most of the recipes can be made with any old bread, as long as it’s plain.
METHOD
make as much as you want
Slice fresh or stale bread into ½-inch slices, or tear into 2-inch pieces and spread out on a baking sheet at room temperature until completely dry. This may take several hours or days, depending on the bread and room humidity. If you need the crumbs immediately, you can dry the slices in the oven at 275ºF until they are dry, and proceed as below. Store any dried out slices in a paper bag at room temperature, where they will keep indefinitely. Toasting the bread slices until golden is a great way to add a deeper flavour to the crumbs, if desired.
To process into crumbs, be forewarned that all of the following methods are loud. This is not a task to do while someone is in a Zoom meeting in the next room! The easiest but slowest method is to use the side of a box grater that looks like jagged burrs were punched through. That’s what that side is for! (It’s actually the so-called zester side, but as anyone knows who has attempted to zest a lemon here and been left with a ragged excuse for a fruit, it’s definitely not for zesting.) Place the box grater over a large bowl that can hold the base securely while also leaving room for your hand and the bread and begin grating the bread. It will be grating on your nerves as well as possibly your knuckles, so be careful! This method produces breadcrumbs of all sizes, very rustic, and will surely please any old world grandmother.
Another way is with a large Thai mortar and pestle (khrok sak), usually around 1 ½ feet tall and made from terracotta. What? You don’t have one of those lying around? Michelle has made untold amounts of crumbs for schnitzel in one of these for a restaurant she used to work at. It works and IS a workout. Just pound the bread slices with the pestle until the crumbs are the size you desire. Barring a huge mortar and pestle, you can also bash the bread with a rolling pin until it is the desired size. Catharsis thrown in for free.
If you live in the 21st century, a food processor also works, as does a high powered blender, such as a Vitamix, or for small quantities, a good quality spice grinder. Nota bene: this is hard on a food processor, so if you are planning to start a schnitzel take-out window, invest in a metal bowl for the processor. For home use, a plastic bowl is fine, but do your processor a favour and break up the slices by hand, with a knife or a mortar and pestle before adding them to the bowl. Process until the crumbs are the size you need. For bonus points, pass the crumbs through a sieve to separate the fine crumbs out, and now you have two sizes! Or just keep processing for fine crumbs.
To make breadcrumb flour, befriend someone who has a tabletop mill. Or use the finest processed crumbs using the sifting method. There is only one recipe in this book which calls for breadcrumb flour, Breadcrumb Flour Pasta (pg 46), but it is so special and it deserves to be included, even if no one is dedicated enough to try it. Once you have the flour on hand, you will find yourself throwing it into all manner of things: cakes, cookies, crepes, crackers, or God-tier circle-of-life perfection: more bread. And if you use this bread to make more crumbs, a portal to another world will open.
Some recipes call for fresh breadcrumbs. To make them, tear relatively fresh bread (day old is fine) into pieces and pulse in a food processor, blender or spice grinder until they are the right consistency.
RECIPE: Sweet Cheese Dumplings
Makes about 22 dumplings
I have such a distinct memory of the first time I had sweet cheese dumplings topped with the ubiquitous fried sweet breadcrumbs: at my grandmother’s chalupa, outside of Prague. The cottage itself looked like a fairy tale: thick walls whitewashed with lime, hand carved and irregular. Flourishes of colour decorated the outside. It was nestled amongst a group of cottages with families that had known each other for generations, summering together. A simple train ride away from Prague, families could pack enough food for weeks, loaded with boxes and bags of sausages, bread, cheese, cream and other staples. No cars were needed to get there, a faraway dream for us in North America.
Fruit and mushrooms were to be found in the surrounding forest. Absolute masses of wild strawberries, currants of all kinds, gooseberries, raspberries, blackberries, morels, chanterelles and porcini.
The closest village was within walking distance and was the former home of Josef Lada, beloved illustrator and a huge part of any Czech childhood, add-ing to the mystique of the place. The cottage itself was small inside, everyone tucked into corners and ledges for the night. No words were needed to convey the deep feeling of well-being. It was obviously everyone’s favourite place. Most hours were spent outside, as it should be. It is never too late to find your place on earth.
My grandmother made the dumplings plain or with fruit inside (plum or apricot halves or whole strawberries) and topped them with breadcrumbs fried in butter and sugar, which added a welcome crunchiness to the creamy soft dumplings. Extra melted butter was poured on top of the dumplings, as well as crumbled farmer’s cheese. Rather than filling them with fruit, I like to serve them with roasted fruit on the side, such as cherries, peaches or apricots. Summer perfection.—mm
I served these with roasted quince for breakfast and I’ve rarely been happier. —cw
Ingredients
70 g sugar
45 g unsalted butter, softened
1 pinch salt
450 g farmer’s cheese (a pressed cottage cheese. Can also use tvarog, quark or very well drained, dry ricotta)
1 egg
1 yolk
25 g plain flour
140 g fresh bread cubes (1 cm dice), such as miche or milk bread, crusts removed Sugar, to poach
Strip of lemon zest, to poach, optional
Spent vanilla bean, to poach, optional Cardamom pod, to poach, optional
Splash of white wine, to poach, optional
Breadcrumbs, to serve (see note in recipe for quantities)
Unsalted butter, to serve
Sugar, to serve
Melted butter, to serve, optional
Farmer’s cheese, to serve, optional
Roasted fruit, to serve, optional
Method
In the bowl of a standing mixer fitted with the paddle, cream the sugar, butter and salt together until well mixed. Add the cheese and mix until smooth. Add the egg and yolk and mix. Add the flour, mix and add bread cubes. Mix until smooth. The bread will disintegrate, this is good. Scrape the sides of the bowl to ensure the batter is homogenous. Using your hands, shape into ping pong-sized balls, about 1-inch diameter. [Editor’s note: If your mixture is very wet , try shaping with wet hands. If it is still impossible to shape, you can simply spoon onto trays then chill — you won’t notice the less-than-perfect shape once cooked. If all else fails, you can add a few more cubed fresh bread.] You can freeze them on a parchment-lined tray, leaving space between each dumpling.
In a medium saucepan, bring enough water (to cover the dumplings) to a boil. Add sugar and any aromatics you have kicking around. It will also be delicious with just sugar. When the water co mes to a boil, carefully lower in your dumplings, counting 2 or 3 per person. Lower the heat to a brisk simmer and poach the dumplings until they are cooked through, about 6 minutes. If you are cooking from frozen, count on 2 extra minutes or so.
Meanwhile, melt butter in a frying pan and add breadcrumbs. [Editor’s Note: I did a ratio of 2:3 butter to breadcrumbs and 40g butter and 60g breadcrumbs, along with about 1tbsp of sugar made plenty of fluffy crumb for about 10 dumplings.] You don’t want the texture of wet sand here, but more a fluffy crumb mixture, so adjust the crumbs or butter accordingly. Add some sugar and cook, stirring, until the breadcrumbs are golden and sizzling. Set aside.
Using a small sieve or slotted spoon, carefully transfer the dumplings to the frying pan, letting any excess water drip back into the poaching pan before adding to the breadcrumbs. Gently toss to cover completely. Serve immediately as is, or add extra crumbs, more melted butter, crumbled farmer’s cheese, and roasted fruit. Absolutely divine with fresh fruit—the temperature difference between the dumplings and fruit is delightful.
I’m thrilled for this book! I hope it mentions how German bakers use a small portion of bread crumbs (roasted and rehydrated/cooked) in bread dough. One baker told me that tis their “magic ingredient” for adding flavor to their bread. 🍞
This book is a dream! Was so fun to interview Camilla and Michelle. Also, yesterday I made the Bread & Jam Twice-Baked Croissants from the book and they are incredible. Another recipe to add to the “To Bake” list, KP fam.